While you studied writing, I studied the blade. While you were having critique sessions, I mastered the parry. Well, you wasted your days at writing workshops in pursuit of sentence craft. I cultivated grip strength. And now that you’re trying to write an epic fantasy novel and you don’t know how to handle swordplay, you have the audacity to come to me for help. Well, you’re in the right place. In this episode of Rite Gud, we are talking about swords, we are joined by Johanus Haidner of the Academy of European swordsmanship. Thank you so much for coming on.
Johanus Haidner
1:07
You’re welcome. Hi, sorry. I have to laugh at that intro, you know? Because it’s it’s so cliche. But I know that’s why you do it. Right.
R.S. Benedict
1:19
Exactly. I mean, before you came on, you mentioned that every sword person has swapped a lot of I studied the blade jokes.
Johanus Haidner
1:27
Yeah. It’s true. Especially the people who are older like myself who are still doing this, because most of us are published writers, academics, things like that. So
R.S. Benedict
1:41
nice. Well, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and your experience with swords.
Johanus Haidner
1:49
I started doing swordsmanship. Back in the late 80s. It was an interest I want to something other than Japanese, or Chinese, because I just didn’t fit in with the culture. I thought, Well, what else can we find? I got lucky enough to find a guy in Calgary who was trying to figure some of this stuff out from the old manuscripts. And he and I studied for a while they’re doing this stuff. And then I fell in with a group called the Society for creative anachronism and tried some of their stuff for a few years. But some of them don’t like to hear this and something. Yeah, this is absolutely true. They’re a big role playing society. Oh, yeah. Right, man, that just wasn’t my thing. It wasn’t into the live role playing so much. I mean, it was fine. And some people were good, but I didn’t join the game as much. And especially their fighting game, because it wasn’t a martial art. And that’s what I was looking for. By 1994. Myself and a few other people from that group, we had discovered actual treaties on swordsmanship. That was written in the 1400s. So we formed our University Club, and that’s where it went from there.
R.S. Benedict
3:04
That’s really cool. It didn’t occur to me that you would actually study swordplay based on old manuscripts. But I guess that doesn’t make sense. So you actually did study the blade? academically?
Johanus Haidner
3:15
We did. Yeah. We were all university students. And I’m the only original member RAF after about a year I defacto took over the teaching, because I was the one with a teaching degree. So I got pushed into that role.
R.S. Benedict
3:31
Now, how do you get techniques out of a manuscript? Like are there diagrams in there and
Johanus Haidner
3:37
the one we had was more diagrams than text? So sometimes it took a lot of experimentation and trial and error to figure out what exactly they meant, because they’d have a description in there, like swordsman on the right does this and the swordsman on the left counters by doing this, and it’s like, okay, but what are those terms mean? And here’s the picture. And here’s how it ends. So let’s see if we can figure out how they did that from body positions and so forth. And of course, there were other groups around the world who were doing this as well. There was another group in Toronto called the Academy of European medieval martial arts. That started round about the same time we did I think our club actually started about four months earlier. lated. So that’s pretty close in time, right?
R.S. Benedict
4:21
Yeah,
Johanus Haidner
4:22
I didn’t meet them for five years, because I didn’t know they existed. And that’s when the internet started to take off was in the late 90s. Right. And that’s how we discovered they existed and vice versa. And we, some other clubs around North America, people met over the internet, and we decided to have a conference down in the states and meet up and exchange knowledge. That’s really cool. Yeah, so that happened in summer of 2000. So
R.S. Benedict
4:49
you’re pretty experienced with swords studying swords using swords practicing. Do you do sword fighting competitions? Do you spar
Johanus Haidner
4:58
Yes, we do. Our School has a tournament coming up. beginning of October, Thanksgiving weekend. It’s the longest running tournament in Canada. We’re the first ones to have one like that. And I can’t even remember when we started. Probably 2003 Maybe 2002.
R.S. Benedict
5:20
Yeah, so you’ve been at this for a good long while. That’s cool. That’s very cool. The reason we’d love to talk to you is because a lot of our listeners are fantasy writers. And a lot of fantasy involves swords. There’s usually a magic sword swords are extremely important in historical fantasy novels are second world fantasy novels. And I’m gonna guess that most of the people who read and write these books don’t really use swords in their daily life haven’t really studied swordsmanship I sure don’t know how to use a sword. I don’t know anything about swords. And I’m gonna guess most of them write stuff based on what they see from movies from Hollywood, which is also written and designed by people who don’t really study martial arts either. And so you’ve just got this long chain of people who don’t know what they’re doing writing for other people who don’t know what they’re doing.
Johanus Haidner
6:09
That sorry, that made me think of Tony Wolf. He did some of the choreography for the Lord of the Rings movies. He’s also a Western martial artists swordsman. And back when those were done, there were online forums, and we would, he would talk with some of the other people in the community. And people say, Why did you do this? Why did this happen? He says, Guys, It’s Hollywood. I only have so much power. I can’t do things.
R.S. Benedict
6:35
Yeah, I’m gonna guess there’s a lot of things. I know, this isn’t realistic, but it looks really cool. So you’re gonna do it?
Johanus Haidner
6:42
Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly it. So some of what they’re doing in there is absolutely accurate, which is really cool. And some of it is just complete fantasy, right?
R.S. Benedict
6:53
Yeah. Let’s talk about some areas where a lot of fantasy writers get things wrong about swords. Let’s start with really basic day to day stuff like maintenance, how do swords need to be maintained, repaired, cleaned, etc. These are pieces of equipment that see a lot of use and like any other bit of equipment, you got to take care of it. So if you’re a swordsman, how are you taking care of your sword? Typically, what are you doing?
Johanus Haidner
7:17
Typically, I’m hanging it on the wall when it’s not in use, so that rather than in a sheath, because most sheets are not designed for storage, they’re designed for transport. The issue with those is if they’re not designed for storage, they can trap moisture and air which is bad for your plan. Simple as that those that are designed for storage, they’re typically oiled on the inside, so that that counters any moisture, very simple solution, but most sheets and scabbards are not done that way. Hmm. To maintain it, after any serious use, I will give it a cleaning, which involves modern materials. WD 40 in period would have used something, some other kind of oil but not a cooking oil, something that doesn’t biodegrade because otherwise it smells and afterwards you would coat it with what today is sold as archivists wax. So what they use in museums to preserve the finish on metal
R.S. Benedict
8:18
So what would an olden times person use you clean it you use some kind of oil on it and
Johanus Haidner
8:25
and then wax the wax. Yep, there were oil clubs made specifically for cleaning where you take the oil cloth is actually not cloth, it was a very fine piece of leather soft often can be made from cow it could be made from goat, I have some that I use to for plate cleaning. And then they’re soaked in oil, and then they’re stored in such a way that it doesn’t get all over everything. And you use those to clean your sores. You can also use slightly roughs materials like today, we use a brillo pad like we use for washing dishes to clean off the rubber spots to see if you get a little bit of rust or something on their back then they probably would have used some kind of steel wall or even copper wall.
R.S. Benedict
9:08
And how about keeping it sharp repairing it
Johanus Haidner
9:12
just a honing stone and repairing it, you take it to the Smith?
R.S. Benedict
9:17
How often are you like sharpening it? Do you need to do that every use or just do it regularly or what
Johanus Haidner
9:23
we hold three to four cutting practices every year. So that’s taking a sword and getting 20 to 30 people practicing cutting with these different sorts that we have. So depending on the sword that used more often, those that are used most often get sharpened about once a year. Those that aren’t used quite as often probably every other year so it gives you an idea of the actual amount of use and sharpening they need. Now I imagine if you’re using it in battle, you want to maintain your sword every time and then check its edge if it needs sharpening. sharpen it. Okay, whenever it’s needed is the best To answer
R.S. Benedict
10:00
Yeah, that is and I’m sure an epic fantasy Hero Guy is using it a lot so he’s sharpening it way more often.
Johanus Haidner
10:08
Yeah. Which where’s your sword out quicker to write? Because when you’re sharpening it you’re not just flattening the edges down you’re actually taking a tiny bit of metal off.
R.S. Benedict
10:17
Now how about carrying it? How old is it typical swordsman carry his sword when it’s not unused? Does he run around with it? Or like on his belt? Is it across his back? Is he sticking it in his knapsack when he’s not immediately like getting ready for a fight? Like where? On your body
Johanus Haidner
10:32
or you don’t carry it on your back? Because you can’t pull it out? Okay, okay, stick your arm above your head. Is that longer than the sword? If not, then you’re not pulling the sword off your back.
R.S. Benedict
10:42
So Zelda is not accurate.
Johanus Haidner
10:44
No. If you watch the movies, they carry them around, and then they never show them actually drawing the sword because the guy can’t do it. There is an online personality, a couple of them who’ve made custom modern hilts that they can do that with but that was not historical. They would be carried on the hip in a sheath or scabbard or a ring, depending on the person and the purpose if it’s just carried in a ring or a frog, which is something specific for something like a rapier, which isn’t very sharp for most of its blade, then you got to remember you’ve got to bear sword there. So you’d have to be more careful what you do with that sharp blade hanging around.
R.S. Benedict
11:25
Okay, so maybe before we go on, what’s the difference between a sheath a scabbard and a ring or a frog you said,
Johanus Haidner
11:32
a frog is a leather holder that’s only a few inches long and you put the sword through it. It’s kind of like a scabbard, but it’s only part of it. Okay, and a frog can also be designed to hold a scabbard or sheath. So, okay, okay. Now, the difference between a sheath and a scabbard is a sheath is made out of just leather is the holder of the inner, so they tend not to be very firm, whereas a scabbard has a firm core on it, which is typically wood.
R.S. Benedict
12:00
Okay, that’s good, because I didn’t know that. I know that those were both words for things you put a sword in. But I don’t know, I know, this is hypothetical. But you know, say your Aragorn running around trying to get where he needs to go? Are you going to like carry this sword in the knapsack? Or is that at your hip the entire time? Because I could imagine it being kind of a pain to like, carry it on you like that?
Johanus Haidner
12:23
Yeah, wow, you would probably have to consider your environment. If you’re expecting orcs come out of the woods at any moment, you’re going to want it on your hips so you can get at it quickly. Whereas if it’s on your backpack, it takes a whole lot longer to get it out. Right?
R.S. Benedict
12:35
Yeah. Yeah, so make sense. What do
Johanus Haidner
12:39
you do there nights used to you know, oh, yeah, we know we’re going to battle square carry my sword. Or they’d have a sheath or a scabbard? Right on the saddle of their horse so they could pull it out. Yeah. And for them a sword isn’t their primary weapon, usually spear or Lance’s?
R.S. Benedict
12:59
Okay, we’re probably going to talk a little bit more about that later. But yeah, so a little bit about the design. A lot of fantasy writers and artists love to give the hero or like the really big villain, a really ornate, cool looking sword with like jewels, or a curved blade or serrated edge, or a lot of extra pointy bits in the hills. How impractical or practical is any of this?
Johanus Haidner
13:24
Let’s start with the jewels. There are lots of examples of short swords that have inlay in them, even jewels, jewels, not so much. But in the because it’s another metal, it tends to be rather sturdy, you got to consider that when you’re fighting, your sword could be hit anywhere, which includes a hit on the pommel, and you should be wearing some kind of hand protection, which is what gauntlets are about. Right? And if you’re fighting without gauntlets are very these gloves than your hands more vulnerable. You got to be a better fighter. There are some of the treatises you can see differences in sword positions. So basically your guard depending on the intent of what they’re doing, if it’s Ernst festen, which means they’re fighting in earnest to kill or maim the other person to tend to hold the bat hands further back. Whereas if it’s more tournament oriented, the hands tend to be more forward because you can hit quicker and you don’t have to worry about your hands being prepped. So there’s that for the hands and how that plays out in decorated Swords is if it’s ornately decorated, this is more expensive that show status, the more decorated it is, a lot of times those were worn for court or show. And while they are practical blades, they were not something you would take to battle right.
R.S. Benedict
14:41
That makes sense. So let’s talk about a couple of more sword related terms that people might misuse. I have heard people refer to something in a sword called a blood groove. What actually is a blood groove? Is there such a thing as a blood groove?
Johanus Haidner
14:58
There is no such a thing. is a bloody groove. The groove that you see in Swords is designed so a sword can maintain its strength, while becoming lighter, if you know what an eye beam is, which is in construction, right? They’re designed so the center is hollower. But they still maintain the strength to hold up a building. It’s the same thing with the sword. That’s what that curve is for you so that you can have the strength of the full metal, but make it a little bit lighter. So you’re faster. It was originally called a fuller groove because the Hand tool that was used to put the groove in there, it was called a four. Nowadays the parlance has become, you just call it a four, or group. There are some later periods sorts that don’t have a groove and use a similar principle. But they make the edges thinner on the sword and the center rises up so they have a riser rather than a groove. Okay. It’s also what makes them lighter. Those are more of a diamond shaped blade, those ones
R.S. Benedict
15:54
meet. Now what’s the difference between the hilt the handle and the grip
Johanus Haidner
15:59
the hilt is the whole assembly, which includes the handle the pommel, the grip, and a guard. Depending on the language of speaking the guard, you might hear Williams, which is the French word, you might just hear called a guard in English or cross across guard. Some people call it a hilt, but that term was not used historically, just for the guard itself, because the hilt was the whole assembly. Historically, the handle of course, that’s the thing you hold on to. And the grip is just the covering on the handle. So my grip might be made out of leather, for example. Or it might be made out of a skin if you’re using a Japanese sword pommel. Well, that’s the very end that countealance on the sword. And the shape and weight of those vary so much that there’s probably hundreds of them. And those can be very individualized as well.
R.S. Benedict
16:55
I see. All right now a little bit about sword making. They’re very, very many scenes in fantasy where someone is forging a sword. And they do this in some very cool, very impressive usually in some kind of volcanic looking blacksmiths where they take liquid metal and they pour it into a groove in an anvil that shaped like a very cool sword is that how you forge a sword by like pouring liquid metal into a really cool groove? No, no swords, you can, you
Johanus Haidner
17:26
can have a cool groove, that’s your ingot, that you would forge the sword from. And that would be very common. Once the metallurgy got to the point where you’re mixing the metal and it can get consistent. However, that wasn’t very common before the Industrial Age. So instead, what they’re doing is they’re mixing bars of metal, which is where we get our Damascus look. From the first recorded instance, we have that of the ancient Celts, but they lost the technology, and then the Vikings, and a few 100 years later, the Japanese. And that’s why they get all those pretty designs on there. Now once metallurgy got better, you’d get more playing swords. And this, of course, is your later Middle Ages. And they’re still inconsistent, not like today where we can get this beautiful blank, where the middle is completely consistent all the way through. Whereas they poured their MCAT you’d have some impurities and parts and whatever. So you’d have one part of a sword that might chip, whereas another part might be a little softer or harder. That’s just the metal quality and technology. Right? So you take the ingot, your blacksmith would heat it, he’d hammered into the shape because hammering it removes some of those impurities, which is nice. You get it to the basic shapes or it’s almost done. And then they would do what’s called stock removal today, which is where they’re sanding or filing off any extra bits and polishing about sharpening the edge. Okay. And it got to a point where production swords in the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance. You’ve heard the term you put your nose to the grinding wheel. Right? There were actually factories in places like Toledo, Italy, where they had these grinding wheels that were 1012 feet tall and platform of the person finishing the sword would lay down and then grind it on that giant wheel which is run by a water mill. And that grinding would be the finishing part of a sword because they’re they’re getting a sword blank. That’s mostly done. They finish it that way.
R.S. Benedict
19:34
Hmm. All right. So you basically you take a solid piece of metal ingot and you hammer it into a sword you don’t like pour liquid metal into a sword. That’s right. Okay. All right. How many people back in the day in I guess medieval times? Were actually carrying swords? Was everyone just like walking around with a sword all the time?
Johanus Haidner
19:55
No swords were uncommon. Do you think the most countries have people carrying guns around all the time?
R.S. Benedict
20:01
Well, I mean, America, yes. Defending in the south,
Johanus Haidner
20:06
even in America, people don’t walk around with their guns on their hips all the time. They might own them, they’re back at home, for whatever reason, whether it’s hunting or whatever, right? sorts of expensive air quality sword could take someone a week to make for their whole labor. How expensive is that gonna be and this is just anyone that could do it. They were trained for years. So this is a skilled blacksmith doing it. Later on, you might get some factory blacksmith who’s making poor quality swords at the demand of his knight or king in order to arm backup sorts for his archers, for example. So those aren’t going to be great swords. They’re not going to hold him edge Well, or they might bend easy, or they might rest easier, whatever the quality is, because those are mostly made by the apprentices. And they’re cheaper. Whereas a knight’s sword would be highest quality. Nobody’s going to be walking around with those except for the Knights. Nobility. You can tell the difference in the quality of the swords when you see them.
R.S. Benedict
21:11
The two armies go into battle with lots of swords are where they’re way more like spear guys, flail guys, archers and stuff like that
Johanus Haidner
21:20
spear. What’s the most common weapon, it’s cheap, it’s easy to train. And, of course, you’ve also got distance on it. Swords again, those are backup, they might have them on their hip, but it’s not going to be a great quality sword for your spearmint, unless they’re wealthy themselves. If you look at the tapestries in the pictures from the period, you’ll often see that big crowds of spearmen, and they’re only partially armored. And some of them will have swords on our hips. Some will have hammers, some will have nothing, big knife, whatever. But they all have their spears. And as for knights, their primary weapon was typically a Lancer spear. And they would have other backup weapons including swords, cuz while there’s prestige with the sword, and they’re trying to use it properly, training with a sword is the biggest issue because it takes a lot of training to get good with it. As for other weapons, like pull hammers and masons and those kinds of things, they’re, they’re fairly common as well. And again, cheaper to make than swords.
R.S. Benedict
22:23
So you’re not gonna write into battle with a sword? Most likely, you’re gonna write in with a Lancer spear.
Johanus Haidner
22:29
Yeah, well, you’ll have your sword with you. Yeah, because you need that. Like, what happens if your spear breaks or gets knocked out of your hands? Well, you better have that sort by.
R.S. Benedict
22:37
Okay, so that’s a backup weapon.
Johanus Haidner
22:39
Mainly for the most part swords are backup weapons. Yeah.
R.S. Benedict
22:42
So what do you mean by not by for the most part, like what? Well, because
Johanus Haidner
22:45
if you’re going into duels, that kind of thing, then of course, those are your primary weapon. Except in like the Vikings, ritualized duels, they actually started with spears. And I don’t remember the full thing I know they got three shields each, which tells you that the quality of the shields was they were expected to break. Right? Right. I remember reading about most often it got down to the point where the spirits were gone, because he also got pending on the duel anywhere from one to three spears. And usually those were not useful anymore did end up going sword sword. They do this really well in 13th warrior,
R.S. Benedict
23:24
right. I remember I remember that movie got bad reviews, but like every dude I’ve met says that movie rules.
Johanus Haidner
23:29
Well, that part of the movie was really well done. That where they did the duel, that was really well done. There’s lots of parts of the movie. I think this is just silly.
R.S. Benedict
23:40
Yeah, yeah. So the sword is the backup. The spear is like your main one for most guys. Unless of course you’re an archer. In which case obviously, it’s your bow and arrow. Yeah. What happens when you try to chop non flesh things like a tree or perhaps the rope holding up a very big candelabra that will drop dramatically onto your enemy while you hold on to the rope and swing also very dramatically across the room to escape
Johanus Haidner
24:10
while the rope will get cut. Whether you can swing or not well, that’s a whole other issue and we’re not getting into that. Rocks are sometimes use as at least moderately as ways to test your cutting to how sharp sword is, of course, they’re bigger and heavier. So they have some maths behind them. If they’re not, then they just move out of the way when Yeah, swinging at them, because they don’t have the maths to keep their inertia, right. Trees. I wouldn’t want to try to chop a tree with my sword because it’s just going to make little cuts in it. It’s not designed for chopping wood zipper chopping flash, or stabbing through armor. So that’s why axes are designed the way they are. They’re much heavier on the end they have a specific angle of their cut in order to chop wood much better Now if I took a tree limb, or green tree limb, depending on the type of tree, say a maple and cut that with a sword, and that is about the same size of my wrist is probably equivalent to cutting my wrist. But the wood will double your sword really fast. Right as per axis your wood axe while it will kill you it’s not a very good fighting weapon fighting axe will have a different profile, so it’ll be a much narrower axe blade. And they often were much longer on the front edge designed again to cut flash and they were terrible at cutting trees. I know I’ve tried just to see what but they cut flesh really, really really well and bone. So huh
R.S. Benedict
25:52
All right. Now you you edited a note to the episode outline about how sir design is a product of materials available?
Johanus Haidner
26:00
Yes, yes, in there, I use the example of a Japanese katana. Japanese katana is much thicker and heavier on the back and probably heavier than most people realize when they hold a properly made Katana. It’s not like the mall major ones. Okay, they’re actually a hefty sword, they weigh as much as European long sword. So they’re good three pounds, sometimes more. And Japan didn’t have a lot of access to good quality steel. So that’s why they did the folding method to get rid of impurities. That’s part of why they made it thick, because then it’s not going to bend so easily. And when they tempered their swords, they were straight before they went into the clay for tampering and firing. And their method of doing that, which I’m not super familiar with. Cause that curve in the blade, which everybody is so familiar with. And I think that’s really cool, because it’s just, I don’t know if it was planned or a happy accident. It’s just so neat that the curve comes out it just without forging a curve into it just by the heating and
R.S. Benedict
27:08
cooling. Wow, I didn’t know.
Johanus Haidner
27:10
Whereas European swords, most of them are straight. They’re much thinner to keep the lightness of the blade, which means that when you’re cutting, there’s less forgiveness and your sword dynamics and how you place the edge. If you have a heavier, thicker sword and the edge is slightly off, you’re still going to cut because your sword is not going to wobble or bend while cutting. Whereas the European swords, you have to have that much more properly live. So your technique has to be much more precise for those types of swords.
R.S. Benedict
27:39
So it sounds like the katana offers certain advantages. Are there advantages to the more European style sword are
Johanus Haidner
27:45
lighter, faster, they tended to be a lot longer. So say I got an eight inch reach on you. That makes a huge differences. So it’s amazing discover how much reach makes a difference. The reach makes more difference than just about anything else. Which is of course, the Europeans knew that which is why rapier is getting so long towards the end of that period. Because Oh, well he’s got a 40 inch sleeve here. I’m gonna make mine 52 inches, which you would see
R.S. Benedict
28:14
is ridiculously large. Yeah,
Johanus Haidner
28:17
that’s the whole sword. Right. I’ve heard there are longer blades, but I haven’t seen one.
R.S. Benedict
28:21
Yeah, because I mean, it’d be handier to fight with but then you got to deal with the practicality of how are you going to carry a six foot long rapier? Like how are you going to walk around?
Johanus Haidner
28:31
I don’t know if there’s ever been a six foot or something. There were six foot long sores like yours. Your two handlers, respite handlers or montante is depending on which culture you’re from those they don’t even bother shooting. They just carry them over their shoulder as they’re walking into battle. Yeah. And you’ll see lots of pictures of the Doppler soaker doing that.
R.S. Benedict
28:49
So carrying a sword that’s as long as a human being is tall. Yep, very tall. So basically, you look like Cloud Strife. Okay, well, I think we touched on this a little bit, but like typically how heavy is a sword? And also can a small woman wield a claymore? Or a broad sword? I’m sure there’s a lot of intense message board discussion about that second question.
Johanus Haidner
29:15
I’m sure there is how heavy is this hurt? Depends on the sword. Yeah. Now, I don’t know how much your listeners know the difference between the types of swords long sword is the most common nightly sword after once you start getting into the plant male error, because that is a two handed sword primarily that can also be used as one hand. That total sword length was, I’d say on average, about 40 to 51 inches, and those who weighed on average about two and a half to three pounds. So they’re pretty light that’s not a lot. Whereas an arming sword, which is the one handed sword that you see people using with shields. Again, it’s got the typical cruciform You cross guard, with no fancy bling on, like, wires coming around? What have you to protect your hand, those were two to two and a half pounds. So you can see there’s a little bit of crossover and weight there. Whereas if you get into the bigger swords, like the two handers, my replica weighs almost eight pounds. Now it’s a copy of an antique, as close as they can make it even modern materials. Supposedly, it weighs about three ounces more than the antique one did. Which is probably just because of the consistency the metal. Because the measurements are all the same. Something like that. My sword is five foot seven inches tall, I think. And I can’t see a five foot woman swinging that around unless she’s super fit and super strong for her size. Because leverage is a thing too, right?
R.S. Benedict
30:52
I mean, obviously, in average woman can lift something that weighs eight pounds, but being able to really carefully, you know, quickly.
Johanus Haidner
30:59
Yeah, but swing that thing out at arm’s length or you’re gonna get exhausted. I do. And I’m five foot 10 and 200 pounds. So
R.S. Benedict
31:08
So unless she’s like really fucking jacked,
Johanus Haidner
31:11
yeah, unless she’s jacked. Which is possible. Plus, you can have a sword designed long and thin. So it’s lighter for the smaller person. Alright, so maybe she’s wielding a six pounds board or a five and a half pound sword instead of a seven or eight pounds or like I would be using. Okay. All right, right. And I mean, I’ve seen fit women who are skilled take on guys way bigger than them, just because they’re faster, better at what they do. It’s the same thing with a heavy one added source such as Scottish Broadsword, the basket can make those quite heavy. So you would have to design that according to the wielder. My basket hilt sword weighs just over three pounds. Whereas I have a student and he’s much thinner, skinnier and smaller than I am. And he had his sword made specifically for him. And it weighs just a little over two and a half pounds. So he’s got smaller hands, I can’t fit my hand inside his basket. I see that sword for him is fantastic. And he’ll kick my butt.
R.S. Benedict
32:19
So bigger sword isn’t necessarily better?
Johanus Haidner
32:21
No, not necessarily. I mean, when we read the documents about resorts bigger is better. In a sense that a great sword is certainly going to take out a long sword or a single handed sword. We’ve done sparring matches in class with a senior students to see how the swords fare against each other. Knowing that okay, these four guys, they’re all the same skill level, give one of them a two handed sword and give the other three long swords. And is is about three to one.
R.S. Benedict
32:50
So let’s talk a little bit about types of sword for your situation or your fighting style. Can you talk a little bit briefly a little bit more about like a different type of sword? And how you might use one like what would you use for a sparring match versus like a duel? Versus like, two people are legitimately trying to kill each other
Johanus Haidner
33:08
a lot of duels, they were legitimately trying to kill each other. Okay, okay, duels were such that they usually had to agree on the weapons beforehand. And they could be different. It could be the same depending on what the agreement was or what the laws were at the time. There’s even in a couple of the treaties that we have specifics about the laws about duels between a man and a woman, which is fascinating, because to equalize that out, the man had to stand into a pit that was as deep as his waist. And he was using a club that was usually about three feet long. And the woman was out on the ground around him and she got to use a shawl, the same length as his club. But inside the shawl, she had wrapped up a rock weighing three to four pounds. Wow. And there were different conditions to win the duel to like if he dragged her into the hole he won. If she pulled him out, she won. So you didn’t have to kill them in that door. Oh, wow. Yeah, there are places I love to see, well, this is a duel between a husband and wife. But when you read the original, it just says between a man and a woman, it doesn’t say husband and wife, necessarily.
R.S. Benedict
34:19
Oh, wow. I want to know the circumstances that led to this. Yeah,
Johanus Haidner
34:23
it’s in German. So it says man on the prowl, when those two words can mean husband and wife or man and woman.
R.S. Benedict
34:30
Wow. Yeah, so you don’t know.
Johanus Haidner
34:34
Yeah. So I prefer to think man and woman rather than husband, his wife because, you know, it makes more sense to me that it’s would be the broader spectrum of that. As for other duels, rape, you’re dueling was a big problem at one point in time and outlawed in a lot of countries because too many people were dying. And so often what would happen is one person would die in a duel, and another person would die. So Several days later from the infection from their wounds, which is no good, right? All your young men are dying because they outdoing each other. Yeah, war weapons tend to be more than things like the sword or shield spears. Especially spears, battle axes, long swords. And there’s a special type of soldier called topple sonar. They were the ones who use the big two handed swords out battle. And there’s a few different theories about how those were used in battle. Some were saying that they were to bait break pike formations, others think they were shock troops. Personally, I think it’s not one or the other, that there’s some of both and maybe other things as well.
R.S. Benedict
35:41
So now let’s get down to it and talk about fights. Like how long might a typical sword fight or duel actually last? Obviously, Hollywood loves to make them these long, protracted elaborate things. But like, how long might it actually last? To give
Johanus Haidner
35:56
you an idea in our tournaments? For the pools, their matches are 90 seconds? Yeah, in those 90 seconds, you can have 10 or 12 different passes where people score? Yeah, in the final rounds, they’re sometimes limited to 60 seconds. That’s an actual fight time. Because if there’s a pause or something, the clock stops, right, right. So they can be really quick, or they can be drawn out, we used to not have a clock on them. Because when he got to the higher levels, the guys, most of the time, they’re just spent dancing around each other trying to figure out where the other guy is going to make a mistake poking at to make holes, rather than actually, you know, crossing swords per se. So a lot of it is psychological. A lot of it’s trying to position jockey for the right position. When you’re at a high level. Those take longer. But even then they don’t take you know, they don’t take hours. Right? If you’re talking minutes.
R.S. Benedict
37:00
Yeah, during a fight, how often are you actually locking swords? You know, how often are swords actually dramatically crashing off each other,
Johanus Haidner
37:09
often enough that there are whole sections in the different treatises on how to deal with the bind, which is where the two swords come together, and they’re stuck together. So winding and binding is a major part of swordsmanship. Yeah, how do you wind out of a bind in order to take advantage of the other person, that kind of thing? Well, how
R.S. Benedict
37:33
much of it is like dodging studying the other person’s movements?
Johanus Haidner
37:37
I’d say most of it is dodging studying the other person’s movements. Once you’re together, probably a third of that is the bind.
R.S. Benedict
37:44
Hmm. And now the cat is yelling. Yes. Harley. What? What baby? What? What do you want? Do you want to complain? Yeah, he just wants to complain. Okay. So how often do you dramatically twirled during a sword fight?
Johanus Haidner
38:02
Ideally, never. Twirling is a good way to get stabbed in the back.
Johanus Haidner
38:09
Yeah. Because, I mean, why would you turn your back to your opponent? Right leaves you very vulnerable, the best place to be in a fight is behind your opponent.
R.S. Benedict
38:19
Right. Now, a lot of fantasy writers unfortunately, draw in Hollywood for inspiration when writing sword fights. So what are some really typical things that you see in movies that make you go like, Come on, man, no.
Johanus Haidner
38:34
Great, huge wide swings. Because when you’re doing that, you’re opening yourself up and it’s harder to defend. You can’t really block was somebody else. Oh, you’ve got this big, huge wise saying he’ll do an efficient straight cut or stab and you don’t have time to get back. That’s one of the things that bugs me the most, because you’ll see two guys out there in a nice great big swing at each other and that just doesn’t happen. More like quick, quick little cuts than they are big swings. What else? The thing where they press the swords together and stare at each other’s faces while we’re calling the swords like that? Yeah. Yeah. That is like no, I’d be head butting him or throwing him to the ground and stabbing him. He comes in that close. Could you kick someone if they’re that close? That might be a little too close for kicking. But yeah, you can kick someone’s and certainly is something that happens.
R.S. Benedict
39:30
Like could you kick the other guy in the groin? Could you need him to grind? Yeah,
Johanus Haidner
39:34
there’s a picture in one of the treaties where the two guys are locked together with their hands above their heads. And at about 45 degrees of their arms, both of them and one of them is kicking the other one in the stomach. Nice. So yeah, it was done historically. And it’s been done in tournaments today to
R.S. Benedict
39:52
was there as much of a worry about fighting dirty in those types of fights.
Johanus Haidner
39:57
If you win, it’s not dirty.
R.S. Benedict
40:00
So like hitting below the belt is fine.
Johanus Haidner
40:02
Oh, yeah. Okay, they’re there. There’s one where I was translating one treaties. And it said to hit him in the maker, and I didn’t know what that meant is like maker maker that I went, Oh, the light bulb went off. Okay, I get it.
R.S. Benedict
40:16
Okay, so like nut shots are totally fine.
Johanus Haidner
40:19
Yep. There’s even one where you throw the guy to the ground, and it says to drop your knee as hard as you can into his maker. Wow. So
R.S. Benedict
40:28
that rocks. Lord of the Rings would have been way better if that had happened. Like if Aragorn had just kicked someone in the nuts. Sick. Maybe that’s how a win won that fight?
Johanus Haidner
40:44
Maybe?
R.S. Benedict
40:47
We’re like, what’s the little hobbit dude who helps her out? He’s in like, perfect position for that.
Johanus Haidner
40:51
Yeah, but he stabbed him in the ankle or something to me.
R.S. Benedict
40:54
Probably. Have you seen any movies or books where you thought he actually that did pretty good.
Johanus Haidner
41:02
There’s some select things. The dualist is probably overall the best one for sword fighting. There are individual fights I see in different things like in Rob Roy, when he goes to the money lender, and there’s a very short fight there. I love that one because it’s probably the most realistic fight I’ve seen in any movie. But it only lasts about 10 seconds. If that. And I said the duelist there’s lots of really good fight scenes in that way. They use proper sportsmanship for the most part. No books come to mind. Most of the fights stuff that I find good in books, they just talk about the approach and then they gloss over what happens and then stabbed him in the throat in the end do several blocks. So they kind of don’t really get into the details of the fight. But then you get the idea of the fight more than that. So you can fill it in with your imagination. And those I really like.
R.S. Benedict
41:57
You did mention that the 13th warrior actually did pretty good.
Johanus Haidner
42:01
Yeah. And the dueling part there for the Vikings. They did that historically. Right? That’s that’s what I really liked about it. And they showed the difference between a really skilled fighter versus one who’s not so skilled. What are
R.S. Benedict
42:12
some other things that you’d want to caution writers to keep in mind when trying to write a sword? Fight Scene, like, don’t forget about this part. Don’t forget about that part. Don’t do this thing.
Johanus Haidner
42:24
One thing that drives me nuts, especially in artwork, is when fantasy artists and fantasy writers have a sword shatter. When swords break, they typically break into pieces. It’s just one clean mind because of the crystalline structure of metal. They don’t shatter and all kinds of pieces. They’re not glass. They’re metal. Metal breaks it snaps. simples out. Have you ever snapped a piece of metal? That’s how swords break. Okay. Yeah, it’s usually along a stress line, that somewhere in there that’s been there for several fights. You don’t see it because it’s microscopic. And then it hits just the right spot. And that stress line cracks open and ping the end of your sword goes by and that’s one thing that drives me nuts.
R.S. Benedict
43:10
I remember you mentioned infection. I feel like that yeah, kind of forgotten thing.
Johanus Haidner
43:15
Well, there were weapons like the rape years and rondels rondels a type of dagger that a round or triangular blade. Those were designed so that it’s really hard to deal with the wound. And, of course, if you can’t deal with the wounds, particularly got wound, infections are a thing. People died. We even have problems with those kinds of wounds today with our modern medicine, let alone 345 600 years ago or more. So
R.S. Benedict
43:43
I know this was like before germ theory, but did people ever take advantage of the infection thing? Like did people ever put gross stuff on their swords? Oh,
Johanus Haidner
43:51
yeah, there’s stories of guys dipping their swords and shit. Going out to the duel. Knowing that even if they lose, at least the other guy’s gonna die. It gets a little cut.
R.S. Benedict
44:03
So they knew at least enough about infection. They knew that much. Okay. I know medicine in germ theory wasn’t so big back then. But
Johanus Haidner
44:12
But even then the the North Americans, some of the tribes would do that and stick their arrowheads in. Buffalo dunks. When they’re fighting, make sure that their enemy died even if they did later.
R.S. Benedict
44:24
Oh, man. That’s really fighting dirt.
Johanus Haidner
44:30
No pun intended.
R.S. Benedict
44:32
That’s biological warfare. That’s intense. Oh, gosh. So we’ve been talking about an hour before we wind down do you have anything you’d like to plug or promote?
Johanus Haidner
44:48
Yeah, my school academy of European swordsmanship were@swordsmanship.ca. I think we have links to our Instagram and YouTube on there. as well, I’ve written a couple of books, one of which is about swordsmanship. So I can, I’m on Amazon with that. And I sell sorts and sort stuff related to Western martial arts, or Historical European Martial Arts Hema, that company is sword gear, and are nonprofit martial arts school gets great benefit from that because all the proceeds go to the nonprofit school.
R.S. Benedict
45:28
Well, that’s cool. I should also ask, would you recommend that someone trying to learn a little bit, like maybe a writer who wants to write fantasy, if I wanted to sort of live it and like, I decided, okay, you know what, I’m going to take a couple of swordfighting lessons just so that I can write it better. Like, do you have any recommendations of what I would look for where I should? Where I would go? Is that even feasible for someone who’s like a middle aged bureaucrat who’s not in great shape? Like myself, perhaps?
Johanus Haidner
46:00
I got two students who are 64 years old. So yeah, you can do it regardless of age. And these two guys say, Yeah, I’m gonna keep doing it till the day I can’t. So hopefully, that’ll be another 20 years. And I also have students who are as young as 13. So any age can join. There are schools all over the world. I can’t remember the name of the site right now. But there are a couple of sites that say have Hema school binders. There’s also the resource called wycked An hour where you can find treat disease, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a link to one of those sites where you can find the different schools throughout the world. Whether it’s your your Great Britain, in America, Canada, Australia, wherever. There’s even schools in China.
R.S. Benedict
46:52
Nice. Nice. Well, thanks very much for coming on and taking the time to talk to us about swords.
Johanus Haidner
47:00
You’re welcome.
R.S. Benedict
47:01
I appreciate it. And thank you all for listening. If you like what you heard, head to patreon.com/ritegud and subscribe. Until next time, keep writing good.