R.S. Benedict
Welcome to Rite Gud. The podcast that helps you write good. Many writers dream of moving to one of the big Cool Culture cities to make it New York, LA, Portland, Seattle, increasingly Austin, but not all of us can live there for whatever reason. Some of us live in itty bitty rural hamlets and we’re happy there. Some of us live in cities with a terrific cultural scene, but the city gets overlooked for being in a landlocked state and some of us live in terminally uncool towns like Albany, New York, but it’s not impossible to thrive as a writer outside of New York City, you can and should still pursue your art wherever you live. Joining us from Tulsa, Oklahoma, is Cassidy McCants, editor of apple in the dark, and a member of the New Haven Independent Review Crew, Cassidy. What is the local art and entertainment scene like in Tulsa?
Cassidy McCants
That’s a great question. And thank you for having me. The current art and entertainment scene in Tulsa is it’s booming. In a way I think it’s getting bigger. There have been many movements to make the scene bigger. It’s happened in the last few years, I moved back home to Tulsa in 2013. And I did kind of feel like there wasn’t much going on. You know, at that point, I had just left my college town, which was small, but kind of happening in many ways when it comes to the arts. But yeah, we now have the Tulsa artists Fellowship, which brings in artists from other cities and states, and then also kind of champions, some local artists, we do have a rich history and scene when it comes to local music. And Tulsa has always kind of had had some gems in that regard. But I do think there’s still a lot of work to be done when it comes to the literary scene. I have found some folks and you know, we, we make it work and we support each other. I think there’s a hunger for more still, we we are, I think a LandWatch state that is overlooked in many ways. There is some cool stuff going on. But there’s a lot of room for growth still. Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
yeah, definitely. Let’s talk a little bit about why writers dream of moving to the big cities, New York City, LA, I mean, it’s not all just prestige. But there’s also there is a reality that they’re these big coastal cities do offer networking opportunities and to have thriving art communities. Being around other cool, exciting, creative people is really energizing as a writer. And that can be it can be tough to find those and also, like there are more job opportunities out there. If you want to be a screenwriter, you’re gonna find more opportunities in Los Angeles than your you will in, you know, Providence or something. Yes. That’s where the movies are. That’s where they come from. Yeah, that
Cassidy McCants
I so I actually do have a confession in 2021. I my my work was remote. So I took a chance and I moved to Seattle. Oh, nice. It lasted about a year, kind of until I ran out of money because I was still making Tulsa money. But I definitely I was, you know, I have found a community in grad school. I’ve been to some writing retreats. And those are the spaces where you know, you’re like, oh, okay, here are the people trying to do this weird thing. I’m trying to do that. I’m not quite getting it home. And a move like this. I you know, I was like, I will find more of this stuff that feeds me if I move to Seattle. So I certainly I subscribe to that idea. Honestly, like, I really didn’t make a single new friend in Seattle. I did have some friends there already fortunately. And many of them are artists. So so we you know, we kept each other afloat. But it was actually so interesting to me. Like there was a lot going on. I mean, constantly something in the literary community or you know, music, visual art, all of it. They had Have all of it, it’s everywhere. But it was, of course, more difficult to kind of break into the scene. I just never, never found a way and you know? Yeah, and maybe maybe because I’m socially awkward, maybe you know, I’m not outgoing enough. But I did, I found it interesting. There
R.S. Benedict
is the big dream of moving to one of the big cities, but you know, it doesn’t work out for everyone like, and for varying reasons. I mean, number one is that it’s expensive to live there. And art doesn’t pay very well. So so cost of living is high, the amount of money you make as an artist is very low. Even if you have a job in the industry, publishing industry, jobs pay really, really poorly. So that is a practical reason for for a heck of a whole lot of people or there’s a cultural reason to I mean, New York City has a particular culture, LA has a particular culture. And these are cultures that aren’t for everyone. I’m not trying to like bash it, but some people just kind of don’t really feel comfortable with the LA life or something.
Cassidy McCants
Just before this actually, a good friend from grad school who’s also in Seattle, you know, found a job listing, senior editor for a very prestigious literary publication. You know, it’s like, salary of 55,000, for someone living in New York City. And it’s just like, you know, that’s kind of where like, that could, you know, you can get by with that in Tulsa. But I just like, that seems like it opens up a very small pool of people who could do that job in New York City, you know, people with other means. We don’t have that, obviously.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, I mean, I guess if you’re young, if you’re in your 20s, or something you can get by you can you can handle living in kind of a crummy apartment with multiple roommates. But when you when you start getting older, it’s like, Nah, I couldn’t tolerate it. I could not handle it. I want something that’s comfortable. Like, don’t want to have to argue with somebody about like, who did the dishes who didn’t do the dishes? I just cannot deal with it.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, I feel like there is a time for that. And maybe certain personalities for it too. Right. Like, yeah, people who can hang with it for longer, but I think on the whole that, that’s a lot for for some. Yeah.
R.S. Benedict
And the big dream is like, well, you pay, you live like that for a couple years. But then like, you move up and you make it but that doesn’t happen for everybody for for whatever reason, it just doesn’t. Yep, it just doesn’t.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, it seems tough out there. I mean, you know, every I think everywhere, it can be difficult to find an arts arts gig that sustains them fully. But it especially terrifies me the thought of trying to do somebody like that in New York City. Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
I mean, credit to people who give it a shot and whether you make it or not like hey, you you tried that school? You were brave.
Cassidy McCants
And on the record, I certainly do not regret my my year in Seattle. It was absolutely wonderful. And you know, I worth worth all of it.
R.S. Benedict
And definitely, yeah. Nice. Yeah. So So for whatever reason, some of us just cannot or will not live in New York City, la Seattle, maybe Chicago, maybe Austin, you know, one of one of those. Some of us are just gonna live where we live. And if you’re an artist, well, let’s focus on writing mainly just because that’s what I know. I know writing and you’re writing and editing. So if you’re trying to live in one of these other other cities, or maybe a small town, there are some challenges of being a writer or making it as a writer or hat living that writing life and one of the big things is a smaller city might come with a smaller audience, which is gonna mean fewer eyes on your work if you’re published in a local publication and maybe more limited funds to sustain local writing. Like we have local arts and culture magazines and Albany. They’re largely free. I have no idea if they can even afford to pay contributors most of the time. Which is understandable because it is a not a big city. There’s not a lot of circulation for these.
Cassidy McCants
I think I’m in Tulsa because I want to be in there. It there’s also some like, it is much easier to be at home in Tulsa and my I do have family here, you know, kind of my roots are here. I’ve laid my roots here, but there are sometimes I am a steer about some of the you know lack of opportunities that I perceive, there are some opportunities. And like I said, I think they’re growing. Maybe it’s me like getting high and mighty about it. Like maybe, maybe I’m being unfair. But I do think for me, the limited scene means that there’s not a bunch of room for every type of weigh in to the art. So like, for instance, during my time in Tulsa, like, it’s, I don’t often introduce myself as a writer, but you know, if it comes up, it’s kind of like, immediately, people go straight to Oh, you’re a poet, like, Well, no. Oh, see, you’re a novelist? Well, no, no, I write short stories. And you know, creative nonfiction, some journalism, I don’t think this art scene is as ingrained in the culture and community. And so it kind of feels like, it just feels misunderstood, sometimes, right, always having to kind of explain, you know, what it is I’m doing or why I’m doing it, and not being totally sure if there’s like, a true space for it here. having fewer opportunities does mean like, sometimes I’m a little bratty, and I’m like, Okay, there’s this one group that has all these resources. And they are, they’re doing the literary thing, and they’re doing many good things. But I am a brat. And I feel I feel like they are watering it down, you know, for the masses. And that is me being a little shitty and judgy. But, but it does, you know, it makes me just want for more, you know, more more ways in. So I’m always toying with how I can, you know, contribute that.
R.S. Benedict
Right. Right, think you get what you mean, there’s sort of a type of vibe. And it’s a lot more limited. You know, in a bigger city, there’s going to be so many different sort of scenes, like there’s not one writing scene in New York City. There’s this, you know, this scene or this little subgroup and that little subgroup in say, in my town, there’s just like one group of people, there’s just not enough people for subgroups. If you want to do subgroups, that’s going to be like, maybe you and your friend, which I don’t know, you could really call a scene. And it can be a little tough like trying to find other writers. I mean, first of all, it’s hard because writers tend to be introverted and don’t really like to talk to other people in general. And secondly, if you try to meet up with local writers, if you don’t like the vibe, you’re out of luck. Yeah,
Cassidy McCants
totally. So I am curious. What is the population Alberni?
R.S. Benedict
It’s barely 100,000
Cassidy McCants
I think, okay. Okay. Yes, I
R.S. Benedict
think we’re technically we’re a town. It’s not big. Okay. Yeah. And everyone makes fun of us. I was hanging out with a friend in Salem. And I mentioned where I was from, they’re like, Oh, honey, oh, gosh, I’m sorry. And I’m just thinking like, man, someone from a town famous for for like witch executions is making fun of me for being from Albany, this is terrible.
Cassidy McCants
I the things you love about it, though? I mean, yeah,
R.S. Benedict
yeah. There’s a lot I love I do like about it. It has like a good balance of it’s very open minded, but also very, like mind your own business. The pace of life is okay. The it is reasonably affordable. I feel like it’s a town that has a lot of potential. But there needs to be like something sort of fostering and supporting that potential. And another issue with upstate New York towns is that because of the proximity to New York City, when a town starts getting kind of cool, it gets gentrified really, really quickly by NYC developers, they like zoom in really really fast and like buy up tons of real estate and just jack up prices and kind of turn it into a a weekend home destination for wealthier NYC residents, which is a real bummer because that’s like happened to Woodstock. That’s happening to Kingston. It’s happened. New Paltz is still kind of a college town, but it happens to a lot of them really nice. Kind of cool kind of hip little upstate towns. They just get like gentrified so quickly because we’re so close to NYC and there we kind of get their run off in a big way. So so a good number of my friends who actually love Albany and love living here like resolutely tell anyone from any other town this place is terrible. Don’t move here just to like try and prevent that from happening. Like no this is awful. Don’t come
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, it’s an interesting like, you you want people to come but you don’t right. Yeah, this seems to be bigger, but at what cost? Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
you want it to thrive but you don’t want it to like attract the attention of some some just horrifying NYC slumlord, my demon who comes in and just just destroys the local housing market because I didn’t see that happen to my hometown, and it’s just tragic.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, that’s a bummer. And I suppose it might be hard to combat those things once they’re kind of in motion, right? I mean, it’s definitely hard. Yeah, it’s super hard. Yeah. But, you know, we do what we can and hope for the best.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah. But I do, I do feel like our town does have some kind of potential. But you know, I just need it needs a little kick. Sometimes. It may be it could be I don’t know. But
Cassidy McCants
I certainly feel that. Yeah, that’s yeah. Very familiar.
R.S. Benedict
So that’s one of the challenges is that you get the smaller, smaller audience, it’s a smaller scene to move in. Which can can be tough, because if if you don’t get along with your little local scene, you’re kind of out of luck. It’s a lot harder to make your own scene or find your own people, because there’s just more limited people. And there’s also this other reality, which is that the greater publishing world really love stories about New York City and LA, and stories about living in New York City and living in LA and stories about what it means to be a New Yorker, what it means to be loose and Julian. And is there there’s not as much of a thirst for stories about like, what it means to live in Omaha or something. Like I can’t imagine, you know, that that novel Maya year of rest and relaxation, I can’t imagine it would have gotten half as much hype and excitement if it took place in like buffalo. Yeah, people would just not go crazy for it. But it’s like, oh, but it’s a girl being sad and napping in New York City. You have to read this. So something that like, you know, my year of rest and relaxation in in Albany would not, it would be a harder sell.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, it is that I do think that’s very real. And I’ve kind of only encountered this issue more recently, because I have taken it upon myself to incorporate, you know, like an actual setting into my weird little pieces more frequently. So the settings I know are, you know, Tulsa, and northwest Arkansas. And I do think you there’s the there the New York stories, la stories, oh my god in in high school, like I, I just read la novels and just, you know, imagines partying with celebrities and messing my life up, you know, to the nth degree and, you know, just living in sin. Having all that the beautiful beaches around me and just I don’t know, real I’d certainly glamorize, you know, the LA stories. When I was young, there is also I think, you’ve got like, I think Florida stories now are kind of finding their footing. And I think, also, there’s a romanticized like South that we hear in fiction and nonfiction. But when when you’re talking about these, like community, like like Tulsa, and Albany, I always assume that aren’t quite as like, maybe don’t fit as neatly into these boxes like it is in the South. Yes, but it’s got like, kind of a Midwestern culture, and it isn’t Oklahoma, but it’s, it’s different from the rest of Oklahoma, but it’s still got the heart of Oklahoma. And I think just the fact that a reader is not as familiar with the nuances of these locations, like it’s, it just might not hit the same for them. But maybe, I mean, maybe we just have to, like, be stubborn about it. And insists that, you know, people kind of learn a little bit about these spaces that are not New York, Seattle, la.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, yeah, one of our former guests on the podcast, there’s a horror writer, a pretty successful one named John Lang and his big popular book, The fisherman takes place very specifically in rural upstate New York in the Hudson Valley. And it’s this interesting kind of spooky, Lovecraftian story that is partly about the formation of the Ashokan reservoir, which is the reservoir that feeds New York City and it’s about this town that gets submerged as a result of it and a lot of strange spooky things that are going on. And I love it because it was about my own like itty bitty tiny town. And it’s very specifically about it. It’s very unapologetically about it and recalls very real locations. And it’s kind of saying to this broader market like no, you We’re going to hear about New Paltz. I am going to rant about how this one very specific intersection does not have a traffic light. And you guys better learn because if I have to hear your jokes about like 25th street and NYC, you can learn about route 155. And how there’s a very bad intersection there. Okay, just deal with it and made it work. He made people care. Respect that so much it can
Cassidy McCants
be done. Yeah, it can be done after go for it. I guess. Like, I think my, my sort of hesitancy when I got into writing fiction, in particular, hesitancy around having a really concrete setting did have something to do with the fact that the stories I had read, were set in places so different from the places that I am actually familiar with. Yeah, I don’t know. For me, I feel like to some degree, it kind of stunted my growth as a writer early on, just like not seeing many stories about places like mine. Of course, that means Hey, there, maybe there’s a space open for it like we need. We need more of us. And yeah, it’s not I don’t think it’s all bad news. But I certainly think it can kind of hinder something in a blossoming writer who’s not from one of these cities.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Or I remember, I went to like a writing convention. I mentioned where I was from in this, like, la screenwriter response. I’m sorry. Like, oh, man, that was uncalled for. Yeah. But that guy worked for like, Max Landis. So you know what, maybe I should be feeling sorry for him.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s God. So like, does that that guy doesn’t really know what it means to be where you’re from? Like, it’s so frustrating to hear that but, you know, maybe originally, he’s from a small town or
R.S. Benedict
maybe, I don’t know. I don’t know. I had some beef with Albany. Someone through smoothie. It is at a cybertruck. Okay. So yeah, big local news is that someone in I think Troy, which is just across the rivers Capital Region, bought a cyber truck, and everybody’s buzzing about it. Apparently, during one of the witnesses, just without a word, just hurled a smoothie directly at the offending vehicle as it was driving by and I’m like, that’s why I love the capital region, man. We just don’t put up with that. We just, we that’s how it is. Yeah, it’s a good place.
Cassidy McCants
These are the good stories like
R.S. Benedict
just yeah, just hurling a smoothie. Without a word without missing a beat.
Cassidy McCants
We there is one, I spotted one cybertruck So far in Tulsa. Yeah. Yeah. What a bizarre experience like I I didn’t think depressed, maybe, but I haven’t been drunk frequently enough, anyway. Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
you gotta keep a smoothie on you just in case just got to keep it on you.
R.S. Benedict
So So another thing that I’m one of these other cities have a non coastal city or a non big city, that might make it a little tough to form in art scene or writing scene is lack of walkable neighborhoods, like having a pedestrian friendly place where people can kind of hang really does foster a lot of community and culture. Car dependent cities can keep us isolated. Like if you have to drive everywhere you end up, getting very focused on your specific destination for a very specific purpose. So you go to work, you go shopping, you go home, maybe if you’re going to go do something fun, you have a very specific idea in mind of like, I’m going to do go to this one place and do this specific thing. And then I’m going to go home versus if you have kind of a pedestrian friendly area, you might kind of like wander around and maybe you’ll stumble across a bar where there’s like a local band playing a gig or maybe you’ll say, Oh, look, there’s an art gallery that’s having an opening or, Oh, hey, there’s a cafe and this guy happens to be like, there’s there’s an open mic, you know, I can hang out with open mic people and maybe talk to some local poets or something. And that can be a huge challenge and a lot of North American cities where you don’t really have the hangout place where you can just wander around and stumble upon culture. Yeah,
Cassidy McCants
definitely. Tulsa is very much a driving city. It’s becoming a bit more bikable this very flat, so it helps that Oh, that’s good. Yeah, that’s that’s something And we’re working on that. But it is true that I have friends who live on the other side of the city, which, frankly, it really takes no more than 20 minutes to drive anywhere in Tulsa, which we are very lucky for.
R.S. Benedict
Oh, wow.
Cassidy McCants
But we’re all we’re brags about it, you know, I will not go to South Tulsa unless like someone drags me there. I just, it’s, it’s, it’s not a pleasant experience to get down there. And I think, okay, so what you said is true. The one upside we have in Tulsa is that most of what does happen in Tulsa in the arts happens downtown, particularly in a small neighborhood of downtown called the Tulsa arts district. And then we have like, just south of downtown, we have a couple of neighborhoods that are a bit hipper. Not exactly walkable, though, like you would you would have to either have on your bike or car to get these other neighborhoods. To me, what’s what I would love more of is, you know, big cities have multiple, artsy neighborhoods to kind of hop. So you get you get to this neighborhood, and then you can kind of bop around and find out what’s going on. The fact that it’s really like, kind of only downtown in the immediate surroundings. There’s just not much like, yeah, it is true. Once you’re kind of in the hip spot. You’re in the hip spot. But but there’s not, there’s simply just not much to do. So you know, you can go downtown, and you can probably find some things on the weekend. Yeah. But yeah, it’s just in terms of variety. Like, there aren’t many neighborhoods to choose from. We don’t have like, we have residential neighborhoods. And then we have kind of three spots that have things going on. And both Cherry Street and Brookside are to two neighborhoods I’m thinking of in Tulsa that really, those are just restaurants though. They don’t really have the art stuff going on. It’s kind of just downtown. Yeah, if you’re willing to get downtown after work, you’ve got some options. It’s just like, that’s your only option there. We don’t have any other neighborhoods to go to for for people are here.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, we used to have to and now we have one. Oh, part of the reason for that. It’s not just pandemic but we had in I think 2012 the city put in like a noise or mense law cabaret law that strictly limits local venues. Ability to host live music acts like you if you’re going to host you know, just a dude with an acoustic guitar playing music. You need a cabaret license now. And it’s a real pain to get it. And that happened a little over 10 years ago, and it like devastated Albany’s local music scene because we have had a history. Historically, we’ve had a pretty nice local music scene. There’s a lot of local bands that are pretty good. We had, there was a really terrific like rock and metal scene back in the 1980s. And this local band got was in like heavy rotation. on MTV, their name was blato. And they’re like the pride and joy of the city of lotto from 40 years ago. And I think more recently, a couple of politicians are trying to undo the damage by either reversing the law or making it easier to get the cabaret license because recently an ESPN commentator embarrassed our town by dunking on it and calling it boring. They were like in town for some sporting event and said like, well, good luck finding anything to do on a Tuesday and Albany and everyone. Boo. How dare you were so outraged. But after we were done being mad, we started going like, well, you know what, they got a point there. Okay, well, maybe we can fix this. So
Cassidy McCants
yeah, I suppose it’s not the worst criticism and is something that hopefully is amendable. Yeah, yeah. Fun to hear. Not
R.S. Benedict
fun to hear, but but unnecessary. Being nationally shamed into fixing a law and allowing people to make music again. Yeah. So we’ve talked a lot about the downsides, the challenges, let’s talk about some of the good parts because there are rewards to being a writer artists outside of one of the big hip coastal cities. I mean, one reward is that you can be a big fish in a small pond and rule your local writing seen with an iron fist. But even if you don’t want to be a local tyrant, there are some kind of positive sides to it. Like maybe you have a unique outsider’s perspective If instead of conforming to the latest, here’s the the trendy thing that’s cool in NYC or LA, you’re being a weirdo who doesn’t fit in is actually really, really good for making innovative art a whole lot of the time.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, I think I as frequently as possible, try to celebrate the perks of living in a place like Tulsa and being an artist, because it’s not helpful to like dwell on the things I’m, I’m thirsty for here as an artist, but there, there really is a lot to be said, for not being in one of the hotspots, like, I’ve realized that the way my life has kind of shaped up in the past 12 years or so, is probably thinks a lot to living in a smaller city with kind of, I mean, less competition. So when I, when I left University of Arkansas, you know, I got my undergrad degree in creative writing. And I was always very interested in editing and my thesis advisor, skip Hayes, like, you want to be an editor, you’re from Tulsa, why don’t you hit up Nimrod? And, you know, I’m like, okay, yeah, Nimrod, literary magazine that’s been around for years and years. Actually, interestingly, my grandmother worked great on Nimrod. Wow, in the 60s, but you know, it’s it. I don’t know, the possibility of that didn’t ever occur to me, because it just, I don’t know if those those opportunities just don’t open up, right. But I took his advice. And I emailed the editor in chief, Elisha O’Neill. And I interviewed with her for like a summer internship, like, Okay, I’m gonna go back home to Tulsa, you know, and hopefully, this works out and I dressed up like really fancy and I wore makeup, which I did never wear much makeup like I just, I just really wanted to make a good impression. And I get to the office and it’s, you know, just like a university office that’s like stuffed with books. And it’s like, very unassuming and felt so comfortable. And I was like, Oh, my God, I didn’t have to have to not be myself. That’s great. I got a summer internship, which turned into a part time job, which turned into a full time job for many years until eventually I was laid off due to due to the pandemic, which is a real bummer. Yeah, but I just feel so lucky. Like if I if this did not happen in Tulsa, like the chances of my even getting a summer internship, I think it’d be so limited. So there’s that. Right. Like, the opportunities that are there. I think you might have more of a
R.S. Benedict
shot. Yeah. Less competition,
Cassidy McCants
I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And in terms of just, you know, being being invited to maybe read it, and event, just do that, the kind of like, there’s some blackout poetry events, I’ve been invited to judge nice. I’ve spoken with some writing groups and been paid some money to do, like six week online fiction classes. I just, I’ve received all these opportunities, I think, because I am one of the few people that the people know. That kind of thing. Right. So I feel very lucky in that way. And, and also, I do appreciate, like you said, that I think we do come in with a different perspective, when all of our directed, like, we’re not being directly influenced by a bunch of people trying to do the same thing, maybe in our every day. And so that maybe allows us to be a little more ourselves in our art, which hopefully makes it ring true. And, you know, fill a space that’s a little bit different.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, I hope so. Definitely. There’s also in some ways a positive economic side. Yeah, okay, maybe there aren’t as many big opportunities but also lower cost of living. I mean, that potentially means being able to keep an unusual creative venue open. Like you can keep your grimy weird little punk rock club open for years and years because the rent is super super cheap. Or you can create a sort of weird communal artists living space because you can afford a former warehouse and, and turn it into little apartments for people to do painting. Like they’re these these things are possible or just as an individual. Maybe you can sustain yourself writing or writing and a little bit of part time work so you’re free to do more creative A lot of why New York City became this art haven that it is now is because there was a time when you could just like, wait tables during the day and then do your cool, amazing creative thing. In the evening, you could you could do your part time, boring, normal job and then have tons of time to do the creative thing and maybe make a little bit of money off of that, and be able to sort of make it work and put in the time and have this community. I don’t know if economically, that’s really viable anymore to like, wait tables part time and then you know, to do poetry or something I have absolutely no idea. It seems impossible. Just by the numbers. I can’t imagine making it work. But I’m sure someone manages to do that by living in a shoebox. Yeah, but with like a small town, maybe it’d be a little bit easier to pay the bills as a full time writer in a way that you probably can’t do in LA anymore.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, I mean, you know, I do have a day job. And it has to do with words, I am an editor, but it is very different. It’s technical. It’s not, it’s not creative. But I think financially, a huge perk of living in Tulsa for me is that without hustling too hard. I do kind of now have the means to, to travel, you know, when I have the opportunity, like Tulsa is cheap to live in, and therefore we can go on vacation sometimes. Nice. So when I’m feeling the need for new influences, or new community or something like, you know, I, I can save up for maybe a retreat or residency or maybe just getting the hell out of town and like driving to Kansas City to like, go see something different, nice. That kind of shakeup is really valuable to just being a writer, right? There are a few different small, like retreat areas within three, four hours of Tulsa. And I don’t know, like the money it takes to do those things is not nothing. And yeah, the fact that you know, the lifestyle here allows me to afford those things. Every now and then it means a lot. Like that’s the kind of stuff that helps to sustain me creatively. Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
yeah, there’s that there’s just the lower cost of living. So let’s talk a little bit about making it work making it work as a writer, let’s focus on writing just because that’s sort of more in our wheelhouse in a smaller town or in a non coastal city or just outside of one of the quote unquote, cool, or cities. Because it is possible to make it work. It’s an I suggest to any listeners, don’t focus entirely on online networking, online networking can connect you to the larger publishing industry. But online communities being online isn’t very good for your brain. It’s not it’s not good for you, and just being around other creative people, even if they’re not 100% on your wavelength, can be really inspiring and really energizing in a way that like, posting just just isn’t. It’s not the same.
Cassidy McCants
It’s different. It’s definitely different. Yeah, the internet does a ton for us in this regard. I do think that’s true. Yeah, for better or worse. I don’t know. I think in the smaller communities, like, for years, when I moved to Tulsa, all I did was go out to see live music like every single night. That was what I could get at the time, right? Like, they were not people doing what I was trying to do. But it was a constant reminder, that stuff in this vein matters. And they found community maybe one day I can and yeah, I’m a writer sitting in this crowd. This folk show, maybe there’s another one. Like maybe I’ll meet some Briars trying to do the same thing. I I really do think having people actually around you trying to do the same thing is just so validating, and then also just makes it so much less lonely. You know? i Yeah, having finding a community I think no matter what we do, it is very important. Yes, gotta make it work.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, and I mean, smaller cities. Smaller towns do often have some kind of culture. It just takes a little more effort to find it. You have to, like, actively hunt for it and go and introduce yourself to people. So initially, when the New Haven independent reached out to me to be part of the review crew, they said, Can you find stuff to review in Albany? I said, I don’t know. I don’t know if I can But then I started hunting and I realized, like, Wait, we actually do have a pretty vibrant local music scene. There’s a ton of little local bands all over the place that are pretty good. And I know yeah, there’s like a local theater scene. It’s small. It’s mostly community theater, but people are doing that. And like, Oh, wow. And then there’s this happening. There’s obviously there’s, like, there’s a lot of stuff, more stuff going on, than I realized. And though my, my time with them has ended, because they decided to focus on a limited number of cities, which is understandable. I’m really grateful to have had that sort of prodding. For the time that I did to be like, No, we’re going to go out and we’re going to find culture, and it’s really, really gratifying and fun. And I ended up experiencing things that I probably would not have. If I hadn’t done this. Isn’t
Cassidy McCants
that so interesting? Yet the New Haven independent, that’s actually a great point, because I have had very much the same experience, you know, writing these reviews for Tulsa, like, I’ve realized how much since the pandemic I’ve just kind of stopped doing things. I thought I was a great art citizen and literary citizen. I’m like, No, I’m I really haven’t been like, I’ve kind of hold up these past four years. So I don’t know. It’s It’s very cool to me, and and I’m sorry, the Albany lost it. By the way. That’s a bummer.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, I can’t I can’t blame them, though. Because I was seeing the page counts on my articles. And I’m like, oh, no, they can’t they can’t justify this. They can’t justify paying me to do this anymore. Not enough people are reading.
Cassidy McCants
But it is I mean, it’s a reminder that there is some like, sometimes there’s outside funding, like maybe, maybe there’s someone on the outside who wants to champion, you know, what we’re doing here in Tulsa, like, that was kind of wild to me, right, like, yeah, there are other avenues for this.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, I was looking through the rest of the Review Crew. And I was really amazed by how much was coming out of Tulsa. I mean, there’s a lot of like, really interesting theater performance art and a really thriving hip hop scene, it sounds like to
Cassidy McCants
Yes, definitely. There really is some cool stuff going on. And it’s nice that someone who’s not here recognized it. Even before I think a lot of us locals Did you know, sometimes we kind of just get lost in our own like version of what our city or town is, I think we can be a little bit blinded to like some of the beauties that are actually happening all around us.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, it is possible, probably probably, to find some kind of cultural thing going on in your local town. And you might find yourself feeling really inspired or energized. But if you are listening to this, and there legitimately isn’t one legitimately there’s nothing there in your town. What that means is that you get to be the person who makes it happen, because it is absolutely possible to make it happen. It is hard. It definitely takes effort. It takes a lot of effort, it might take a little bit of investment, not not a ton. But it is absolutely possible. I mean, one handy thing about our current media landscape is that publishing is a lot more accessible than it used to be. I mean, you can publish via online platform, you can pretend it’s the 1990s and distributed, distributed, cheap, free zine somewhere in local cafes and restaurants and whatever is there, you can do it. It’s possible, it might not be super fancy. But guess what, when once you’ve been doing it long enough, you’ll be locally known as Oh, yeah, the guy who does that zine, that guy. And then you’re that guy, then you’re like, famous really quickly.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah. And hopefully, you know, you attract people who, who want to join you. Yeah, I think, especially when we’re feeling a C about the lack of opportunity is, that’s when we need to try to get creative about how we can chip in, though, as I said, there we have, we’ve got some things going on in Tulsa. I wanted to see more of, you know, the things that I carried about in the literary world. So I, you know, for a while I think I was just like, man, it’s not here. I’m not grumpy. And finally, I’m just like, dammit, Cassidy. Okay, you’re starting a reading series. And so it did. And it takes it does take work, but like, it doesn’t take money, really. I mean, I was very lucky to find a venue that did not require me to put down any money. That’s not always going to be the case. But hopefully you can find somewhere that’s just like, if you’re out and about on the town, you can find at least the people or the places that are willing to support your art. Yeah, you’re likely to find some people who are excited about this kind of stuff, even if they’re not actually in the literary world. They’re like, Oh, hell yeah, like Poetry night. Sounds great, you know, approves reading sounds wonderful. Like, I think people are probably more excited about these things than we know. Maybe the ideas just have not been posed. So I’m all for Yeah, like, doing what you can to build it if it’s not there.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, yeah, we’ve actually got kind of a little, a lot of my friends are involved in this little it’s almost semi underground stand up comedy scene. And it’s just, yeah, here’s the bar that hosts comedy night there, because they’ll do it because they need they want to host some sort of night. Sure, if you can put a sign on the door that might bring people into into the place to buy chicken wings. You’re golden. You can do the thing there. Yeah, they won’t pay you. Maybe they’ll give you a beer. But they will give you a space. Yeah. And sometimes that’s really all you need to get something started. Definitely.
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, I think once you kind of flop around that just be open to I don’t know, I guess you think of it as like a partnership, right? Yeah. If you’ve got friends in the theatre community, or the music community, or one of these other arts communities who have some resources to offer, like maybe maybe they can help you out, like maybe they have a space, maybe they have equipment, maybe they have a built in audience who would be down to listen to something different from what they’re used to. Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
there are also a lot of local festivals where it might be possible to get a little table for cheaply to sell your work. If you’re like a local magazine person, I’ve noticed that a lot of local little festivals there’s there are some local kind of indie magazine publishers who do this very, very artsy visual arts and fiction magazine, and they’re always selling a stack of them with stickers. Even if you don’t sell a copy of the magazine, you can probably sell stickers. By stickers, I will always buy a sticker, especially if it’s really shiny. Or even just starting a writing circle writing it is, as a writer, it’s so hard to find other writers. But when you can get a good writing circle going, it’s such Gosh, it’s such a it’s just such a terrific motivation for writing, it just gives you so much fuel that sitting alone in your apartment won’t give you or that posting on the internet definitely will give you
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, I mean, even like, even if the crew you find even if they have like, a totally different idea of you know what a story or a poem or an essay is supposed to be just having that community there is huge, like, you don’t all have to be on the same page about what it is you’re trying to create. You were you’re trying to write something right. And that Bond’s you. And that, again, is validating. It feels so much less lonely. Because Damn, it can be lonely. Yeah, you’re not finding anyone who’s Yeah, for our purposes, trying to write you know, it’s, that can be kind of brutal. It
R.S. Benedict
can, it can be very tough. But um, that feeling when you do find your people cash. And it’s not impossible, people kind of wonder how you become like a writer or the local writer? And the answer is just, you’re the local person who keeps on writing. And the thing about art is like, you start doing your thing, and you just sort of keep doing it until you’re the guy who’s known for that thing until you’re the guy who’s known as like, Oh, hey, you’re that writer. And that’s all that’s all it takes to be that writer is that you just keep doing it until someone recognize you. And it will eventually happen. Probably I
Cassidy McCants
agree. I mean, of course, it’s easier said than done that just to just to keep going right, but just keep doing
R.S. Benedict
it for years and obscurity, like oh, man, that’s super hard. It’s really hard. But
Cassidy McCants
I think you have to I mean, it’s I think it’s kind of a hard fact. And, you know, for some, it’s not going to be as much of a slog. And I think if you think about it less, like I’m trying to establish myself as this committee more as like, I’m just trying to contribute and find my people, you know, eventually it is going to happen. Even in tiny towns, there are a lot of people doing a lot of different things. And you might not be as weird as you feel you’re probably not as weird as you feel. You’re not the only one who cares about this thing I have certainly felt in my life. Like I’m the only one who cares about this thing. How the hell can that be? Turns out? Of course I was. But it takes some getting to and you gotta be stubborn. Gotta have some stamina and that part sucks. But yeah,
R.S. Benedict
but finding other people who are kind of doing this even if it’s just like, Let’s hang out a couple of times a month and write for an hour or two or let’s just talk about books or something like that is what keeps you going until it clicks. Yeah,
Cassidy McCants
I mean, if nothing else, you can find people who are down for a book club. And if they don’t have the same taste as you, that’s fine. Take turns choosing books and then you can, you can indulge your tastes and learn more about, you know, another genre or whatever.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, and sometimes getting outside of your comfort zone as a writer can be pretty good, too. Yeah. And book clubs can be kind of fun. When one person absolutely hates the book. Another person loves it. And they can argue it’s really, really cool. It’s really fun drama. Yeah, yeah. The conflicts. I want to see it. Yeah. So good.
Cassidy McCants
We’re accustomed to many like rejections as a writer, you know, for submitting, especially for submitting our work. I think we have to be welcome to rejections. Just like in our day to day like, Okay, I didn’t find my people this week. But yeah, I’m gonna keep putting myself out there the best way I can’t.
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, definitely. So we’ve been talking for a little under an hour. Any last thoughts, questions or comments?
Cassidy McCants
Yeah, I mean, I think I’ll just say again, like, I think there are many perks actually to, to not living in one of the writer hotspots. Yeah. Despite, you know, despite the slog, like, to me, it is so worth it. And I think we just have to keep building the things for ourselves. And maybe if we’re the ones who build them, then they’re not going to be like the shitty versions, you know, we can make beautiful versions of the scenes we want. Yeah,
R.S. Benedict
yeah. And just simply as a reader, too, I appreciate stories that have a specific setting other than New York City. One of our one of our frequent guests and member of our online writing group is a is a Portuguese guy from Lisbon, who hates New York City and every story from it and gets very, very angry. So I think he would be happy and prefer to read more stories that aren’t set in NYC or LA because he gets very, very angry. I love that. And he’s pretty, he’s pretty muscular. So he will fight you. He will fight about this. Okay, small, hairy European man.
Cassidy McCants
All right, those of you and watch out. For
R.S. Benedict
Yeah, yes, small, a small little European caveman will come and put you in a headlock if you put your novel in New York City. Anyway. So let us close up. Before we go. Where can our listeners find your work and support you?
Cassidy McCants
Thank you so much. I do have a website. It’s my first and last name. CassidyMcCants.com. I also have an online literary magazine, Apple in the Dark. And that’s just AppleInTheDark.com. Nice. We’re about to come out with our summer issue. So gonna be some editing here in the next few days. Very excited about that. And then we’ll open up submissions soon. Yeah, that’s where I am on the interwebs.
R.S. Benedict
Nice. And you’re also a member of the New Haven Independent Review Crew. So if you want to see some of Cassidy McCants’ works go head to the New Haven independent they have a whole section called the review. True that reviews interesting cultural events from New Haven. Yeah, so there’s some from NYC but also from other cities, other cities because other cities exists and have a cultural life. And there’s a there’s a lot of really cool stuff going on. Yes.
Cassidy McCants
Huge shout out to him and independent for this. Yeah, it’s
R.S. Benedict
super cool that they put this together and I really hope to see it thrive. Yeah, that’s great. And I was really happy to be to be a part of it, if only but anyway, thank you so much for coming on.
Cassidy McCants
Thank you so much for having me. This was lovely. And thank you
R.S. Benedict
all for listening. If you like what you heard, please head to patreon.com/ritegud and subscribe. Until next time, keep writing good.